Israeli historian Ilan Pappe: ‘This is the last phase of Zionism’ | News about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict

Copenhagen, Denmark – On a freezing Saturday morning in Copenhagen, Ilan Pappe was warming up in a movie theater, chatting and joking in fluent Arabic with one of the organizers of the conference he was about to address between sips of black coffee from a paper cup.

Unlike other Israelis, Pappe said, he learned the language of the “colonized” by spending time in Palestine, surrounding himself with Palestinian friends and taking formal Arabic lessons.

Hundreds of academics, officials, international rights activists and everyday Danes appalled by Israel’s genocide of Palestinians in Gaza attended the event in the Danish capital, hosted by the European Palestine Network.

The group was founded recently, and its members include Danes of Palestinian origin.

Pappe later told the audience that since the outbreak of Israel’s latest war against Gaza, he had been shocked by Europe’s response.

“I am surprised with many people about the European position,” he said on stage. “Europe, which claims to be the paragon of civilization, ignored the most televised genocide of modern times.”

On the sidelines, Al Jazeera interviewed 70-year-old Pappe, a leading Israeli historian, writer and professor who has spent much of his life fighting for Palestinian rights. We asked him about Zionism, solidarity and what he thinks the changing American political scene means for Gaza.

Al Jazeera: You have long said that the tools of Zionism, a nationalist political ideology that called for the creation of a Jewish state, included land capture and emigration. For the past 15 months, Gaza has suffered daily mass killings. What phase of Zionism are we witnessing?

Ilan Pappe: We are in a state that can be defined as neo-Zionist. The old values ​​of Zionism are now more extreme, [in] a far more aggressive form than they were before, trying to achieve in a short time what the previous generation of Zionists tried to achieve in [a] much longer, more, gradually, gradually.

This is an attempt by the new leadership of Zionism to complete the work they started in 1948, namely to officially take over all of historic Palestine and get rid of as many Palestinians as possible in the same process, and [this is] something new, creating a new Israeli empire that is either feared or respected by its neighbors – and thus may even expand territorially beyond the borders of mandated or historic Palestine.

Historically speaking, I am prepared to say with some caution that this is the last phase of Zionism. Historically, such development of ideological movements, whether colonialists or empires, is usually the final chapter [that is] the ruthless one, the most ambitious one. And then it is too much and then they fall and fail.

Al Jazeera: We are days away from a new political landscape as Donald Trump heads to the White House for the second time. He has an even louder voice on social media with tech billionaire and X owner Elon Musk, who praises Israel’s policies and its military, among senior figures in his administration. How do you see the president’s influence on Israel? Will the war in Gaza continue?

Papa: It is very difficult to see anything positive during Trump’s second term and his ties to Elon Musk.

The future of Israel and Zionism is tied to the future of America.

I don’t think all Americans are Trump supporters. I don’t think all Americans are supporters of Elon Musk.

[But] I’m afraid that not much can be done in the next two or three years.

The only good news is that the populist leaders like it [US President-elect Donald] Trump and lunatics like Elon Musk are not very capable. They will bring down the American economy and America’s international standing with them, so it will end badly for America if these kinds of personalities lead it.

In the long run, I think this may lead to less involvement of the United States in the Middle East. And to me, a scenario where you have minimal American involvement is a positive scenario.

We need international intervention not only in Palestine but for the entire Arab world, but it must come from the global south, not the global north. The Global North has left such a legacy that very few people would consider anyone from the Global North an honest mediator. I am very worried about the short term, I don’t want to be misunderstood. I see no force to stop the short-term disasters that await us.

When I see the bigger perspective, I think we are at the end of a very bad chapter in humanity, not the beginning of a bad chapter.

Al Jazeera: A ceasefire is currently being negotiated. When do you expect Palestine to enjoy peace?

Papa: I don’t know, but I think that even the ceasefire in Gaza is not the end, unfortunately, because of the genocide. Let’s hope there will be enough power to, if not stop, at least tame or limit it.

In the long term, I see a lengthy process. I am talking about 20 years, but I think we are at the beginning of this process.

It is the process of decolonization of the settler-colonial project.

It can go either way. We know that from history. Decolonization can be very violent and not necessarily produce a better regime, or it can be an opportunity to build something much better, which is a win-win for everyone affected and for the region as a whole.

Al Jazeera: To Palestinians and many observers, it seems as if the world is standing by as Israel expands into its neighbors and commits genocide with impunity.

Papa: Well, the last stage from a historical point of view is a long process. It is not an immediate process. It’s not a question of if it will happen, it’s a question of when. And it could definitely take some time.

There are regional and global developments that allow this phase to continue. Whether it’s the rise of populist politicians like Trump, the power of multinational corporations, the rise of fascism, the new right-wing fascism in Europe, the level of corruption in some Arab countries, it all works to maintain a global alliance that allows Israel to do what it does, but there is another covenant.

It does not have the same force, but it is widespread and is connected to many other struggles against injustice. It is quite possible that, if not in the near future, then a little later this kind of global sentiment that is not just focused on Palestine, is focused on global warming, poverty, immigration and so on – that this becomes a more powerful political force. Every small victory of that second global alliance brings the Zionist project closer to the end.

Al Jazeera: What does that other alliance have to do? What could help their cause?

Papa: There are two things. First, we do not have an organization that somehow contains this goodwill, support, solidarity, this energy to fight injustice. Proper organization is needed and some of the young people who are part of this alliance seem to dislike, for good reasons, organizations and so on. But you need this infrastructure.

Another thing is to abandon the purist approach that such movements have had in the past and create networks and alliances that take into account that people do not agree even on fundamental issues, but are able to work together to stop the genocide in Gaza, to free the colonized people.

Al Jazeera: Going back to the more powerful alliance that you say supports Zionism, you talked about the rise of the far right in Europe. However, there is still anti-Semitism among them.

Papa: That ungodly alliance existed from the very beginning. If you think logically, both anti-Semites and Zionists, when it comes to Europe, had the same goal, they did not want to see Jews in Europe. Seeing them in Palestine could be the goal of both the Zionist and anti-Semitic movements.

Now there is a new layer of uniformity of ideas between the non-right and Israel, and that is Islamophobia.

The New Right now, although it still has strong anti-Jewish or anti-Semitic elements, targets mainly the Muslim and Arab communities. It does not specifically target Jewish communities.

They see Israel as the most important anti-Islamic anti-Arab power in the world, so there is an identification on that level as well – but of course, that is something that Jews outside of Israel would regret if they were part of such an alliance. Even pro-Israel Jews in Europe feel a little uneasy [those that] drape themselves in the Israeli, but at the same time, Nazi flag.

Hopefully this will make them reconsider their association with Israel. We are already seeing signs, especially in the American Jewish community among the younger generation, that they understand that Israel is now part of a political alliance with which they as American Jews cannot identify.

As we say, it allows Israel to continue because of Trump and populist leaders, but it’s also something that won’t be around forever.

Al Jazeera: The genocide has led many, including some Jewish groups, to study the creation of Israel and the historical ethnic cleansing of Palestine. Have you seen families divided by understanding conflict?

Papa: That doesn’t happen [in Israel] but definitely Jewish families outside of Israel.

The amount of information flowing is so great that the younger generation cannot be blind. Even if they get a very good Jewish education, moreover, they can see the immorality of Israel’s actions.

It is mainly an intergenerational conflict, which is a positive sign because it means that the current generation could be much more even in this position.

Al Jazeera: But inside Israel, young people also have access to documentation of the genocide on social media, on platforms like TikTok. But many still ignore Palestinian suffering.

Papa: They did not receive the same education as young Jews in America. They got their education in a very indoctrinated country. And that’s the key. They are manufactured, if you will, engineered by the Israeli education system.

I wrote an article in 1999 warning that, looking at the Israeli curriculum, the next graduates of this system would be racist fanatics, extreme and dangerous to themselves and others. Unfortunately, I was absolutely right.

This is the product of a highly indoctrinated society from the cradle to the grave.

You have to re-educate these people. You can’t just show them things and hope it moves them.

I can see dead Palestinian babies and say ‘Good, very good’. Dehumanization is part of Israel’s DNA and it is very difficult to confront it just by providing more information.